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shrooms
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Why would "nothing" happen? what do you mean by nothing?
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01.12.04 19:38 Post #61 | [Hide Sig (6)] [Profile] [Quote] |
the candy man
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you dont go to heaven, you dont go to hell, your not reincarnated, monkeys do not rule the world and you do not make friends.....
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01.12.04 19:54 Post #62 | [Hide Sig (0)] [Profile] [Quote] |
kikumbob
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However hard I try, I can not believe the bible. For one thing most of the stories told are completley impossible. For example, Noahs ark was supposed to be huge (I dont know how huge but I bet Glenn could help there ) and supposedly made out of wood. I have sat through many science lessons where I have been told again and again why liners and ice breakers are not made out of wood, simply because they would break in half under their own weight. Also the number of animals taken onto the ark is stupidly big, and finding them all would require years, they didnt have that long!
Anyway, the second reason why I dont believe the good book is simply the way it keeps contradicting itself. There are many stories/teachings/advice in there which could not be true all at once. For example, it says that god forgives us all. So why do some go to hell? Surely he would forgive them? Although Glenn's previous post seemed to clear that up (I didnt understand much, but it seemed to help).
Ive always liked and was good at science in my school. However, the bible contradicts science in every way. Most stories in the bible are impossible if you go with science. It makes me wander how a scientist could ever be religious, yet some are (such as my parents)
I do, however, believe there is something/someone out there like God who helps everyone now and then by slightly tweaking events. I know because Ive sometimes had miracles before. Such as how I met my girlfriend, who was stranded in our local town because her parent's car had broken down. My mum had run low on petrol and stopped at the station and told me to get something from the shop just down the road where she was. Now that i think back at it, the chances my mum had run low on petrol just then, that her mum had broken down, that I just happened to want to help by nipping into a shop or two is incredibly small. Anyway I think Ive made my point, but that was, to me, a son of a miracle.
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01.12.04 23:46 Post #63 | [Hide Sig (9)] [Profile] [Quote] |
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It was a miracle that someone I know survived a car crash. She flipped and totaled her car. Everything about the car was basically destroyed. And her CD player was dying to begin with. Except for the driver's seat. She escaped with nothing but a scar on her leg. And she wasn't wearing a seatbelt! Science is studied by people. People make mistakes.
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02.12.04 00:25 Post #64 | [DA Gallery] [Hide Sig (3)] [Profile] [Quote] |
kikumbob
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I know a woman I know was very stupid and opened her door while driving. Her seatbelt wasnt on properly and she was whipped out of the car and suffered a very serious injury to her head. Today all she has is a scar, no bones were broken and even her car managed to slow down on a grassy bank before crashing into something, yet another miracle!
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02.12.04 00:39 Post #65 | [Hide Sig (9)] [Profile] [Quote] |
Glenn
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However hard I try, I can not believe the bible. For one thing most of the stories told are completley impossible. For example, Noahs ark was supposed to be huge (I dont know how huge but I bet Glenn could help there ) and supposedly made out of wood. I have sat through many science lessons where I have been told again and again why liners and ice breakers are not made out of wood, simply because they would break in half under their own weight. Also the number of animals taken onto the ark is stupidly big, and finding them all would require years, they didnt have that long!
This answer is spoiled because it's INCREDABLY LONG, but it should appease you.
Spoiler (Click to Expand)
Taken from Insight Book Volume 1
ARK
1. Noah's ark was the provision by which forefathers of all mankind survived the global Deluge of 2370-2369 B.C.E. (See DELUGE; NOAH No. 1.) Detailed instructions were given to Noah by Jehovah as to its size, shape, design for light and ventilation, and materials to be used for its construction.-Ge 6:14-16.
Design and Size. The ark (Heb., te·vah´; Gr., ki·bo·tos´) was a rectangular chestlike vessel presumably having square corners and a flat bottom. It needed no rounded bottom or sharp bow to cut rapidly through the water; it required no steering; its only functions were to be watertight and to stay afloat. A vessel so shaped is very stable, cannot be easily capsized, and contains about one third more storage space than ships of conventional design. There was a door provided in the side of the ark for loading and unloading the cargo.
In size the ark was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. Conservatively calculating the cubit as 44.5 cm (17.5 in.) (some think the ancient cubit was nearer 56 or 61 cm), the ark measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.), less than half the length of the ocean liner Queen Elizabeth 2. This proportion of length to width (6 to 1) is used by modern naval architects. This gave the ark approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) in gross volume. It is estimated that such a vessel would have a displacement nearly equal to that of the mighty 269-m (883 ft) Titanic of this 20th century. No cargo vessel of ancient times even slightly resembled the ark in its colossal size. Internally strengthened by adding two floors, the three decks thus provided gave a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space.
"You will make a tso´har [roof; or, window] for the ark," Noah was told. (Ge 6:16) Just what this was or how it was constructed is not altogether clear. Some scholars think tso´har is related to light and so they translate it "window" (KJ, Mo), "light" (AS, JP), "a place for light" (Ro). Others, however, associate tso´har with a later Arabic root meaning "back (of the hand)," "back (of a beast)," "deck (of a ship)," that is, the part away from the ground or water, and for this reason translate it "roof." (AT, RS, JB) This tso´har, Noah was told, was to be completed "to the extent of a cubit upward."-Ge 6:16.
It could be, therefore, that the tso´har provided for adequate light and ventilation, not just a single cubit-square "peephole," but an opening a cubit in height near the roof and extending around the four sides to give an opening of nearly 140 sq m (1,500 sq ft). On the other hand, while still allowing an ample opening for ventilation under the roof or elsewhere, the roof could have had slightly angled sides. Regarding this possibility James F. Armstrong wrote in Vetus Testamentum (Leiden, 1960, p. 333): "'Unto a cubit upward you shall finish it' is difficult to understand when sohar is translated either 'light (= window)' or even '(flat) roof'. If, however, a gable-type roof be postulated, the 'one cubit upward' can refer to the elevation of the crease of the roof above the level of the tops of the walls. In modern architectural terms, the 'one cubit' would be the height of the kingposts between which the ridgepiece is laid. . . . According to the argument that has been presented, the roof of Noah's ark was conceived as having a four per-cent pitch (1 cubit elevation - 25 cubits from wall to ridge), quite adequate to permit the water of the rains to flow off."
Of what this huge ark was to be built was made plain by Jehovah: "Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree [literally, trees of gopher]." (Ge 6:14) This resinous wood here prescribed is thought by some to be cypress or a similar tree. In that part of the world what today is called cypress was in abundant supply; it was particularly favored for shipbuilding by the Phoenicians and by Alexander the Great, as it is even down to the present time; and it is especially resistant to water and decay. Doors and posts made of cypress are reported to have lasted 1,100 years. In addition, Noah was told not merely to caulk the seams but to "cover [the ark] inside and outside with tar."-See BITUMEN.
Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures "of every sort of flesh, two of each," were to be taken aboard. "Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive." Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.-Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.
The "kinds" of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding "according to their kinds." It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family "kinds"-the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to "kind" established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 "kinds" of mammals, 74 "kinds" of birds, and 10 "kinds" of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 "kinds" of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird "kinds" were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few "kinds" following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind-short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin-all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.
These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.
Five months after the Deluge began, "the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat," not likely, however, atop the uppermost peak (nearly 5,165 m; 16,950 ft), but on suitable terrain where everyone aboard lived comfortably for some months more. Finally, after a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.-Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14.
Claims that remains of the ark have been found are as yet unconfirmed.
Anyway, the second reason why I dont believe the good book is simply the way it keeps contradicting itself. There are many stories/teachings/advice in there which could not be true all at once. For example, it says that god forgives us all. So why do some go to hell? Surely he would forgive them? Although Glenn's previous post seemed to clear that up (I didnt understand much, but it seemed to help).
2 Peter 3:9
God is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
God does forgive people if they actively seek it. But, his patience is not unlimited, as was seen by the various times the nation of Israel was punished for disobedience (most notably the 40 year trek through the wilderness).
And here's another spoiler, containing the explination of hell.
Spoiler (Click to Expand)
HELL
A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew she´ohl´ and the Greek hai´des. In the King James Version the word "hell" is rendered from she´ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she´ohl´ is also translated 31 times "grave" and 3 times "pit." In the Douay Version she´ohl´ is rendered "hell" 64 times, "pit" once, and "death" once.
In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word she´ohl´ was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, "grave" and "pit" were used, and "hell" is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated she´ohl´ in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated hai´des in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Ge´en·na (English, "Gehenna") is rendered "hell" throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.
Concerning this use of "hell" to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: "HADES . . . It corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered 'Hell.'"
Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 2 says concerning "Hell": "First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation."
It is, in fact, because of the way that the word "hell" is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "Hell" says: "fr[om] . . . helan to conceal." The word "hell" thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a 'covered over or concealed place.' In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.
The meaning given today to the word "hell" is that portrayed in Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a "hell" of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under "Hell" says: "Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment." The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the "nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."-The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.
"Hellfire" has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: "Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception." Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.-See GEHENNA; GRAVE; HADES; SHEOL; TARTARUS.
Those that are eternally condemmed include Adam and Eve, the people of Noah's day, the people of Soddom and Gomorrah, all adults but Joshua and Caleb entering the wilderness, those that condemmed Jesus (and showed no repentance), and those that will die in Armageddon. These have no ressurection/paradise hope for their massive sins.
Ive always liked and was good at science in my school. However, the bible contradicts science in every way. Most stories in the bible are impossible if you go with science. It makes me wander how a scientist could ever be religious, yet some are (such as my parents)
I can't answer this one unless you give me an example.
Edit: All those slashes in the spoilers shouldn't be there, but it's too hard to get rid of them.
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02.12.04 00:55 Post #66 | Last edited: 02.12.04 00:57 (Glenn - 1 times) |
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Akuryou13
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However hard I try, I can not believe the bible.
I'm not reading glenn's post as it's about 5 times longer than a long post I'd normally read, so I don't know what his point about this topic is, but I have to say I agree with you kikumbob. the bible is pretty unbelieveable in many ways, but keep in mind that it HAS been changed slightly over the 2000 years, so it's not surprising that some of the stories no longer make sense. some of the stories aren't meant to be taken literally (such as the 7 days of creation obviously wasn't 7 days as we know days, cause we judge days on the earth's rotation, and god couldn't have done that, but the point of the story is still valid.), as is obvious from reading some of them. the bible is a good guide to teach you how to live, and a good source of values, and that's what it was meant to be. just take the values and such from the bible, and form your life around them, you don't have to believe all the parts of the bible to do that.
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03.12.04 17:24 Post #67 | [Hide Sig (4)] [Profile] [Quote] |
clarkey252
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A week has no relevance to the earth!
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03.12.04 18:19 Post #68 | [©larkey252's Space] [Hide Sig (7)] [Profile] [Quote] |
meszka
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However hard I try, I can not believe the bible.
I'm not reading glenn's post as it's about 5 times longer than a long post I'd normally read, so I don't know what his point about this topic is, but I have to say I agree with you kikumbob. the bible is pretty unbelieveable in many ways, but keep in mind that it HAS been changed slightly over the 2000 years, so it's not surprising that some of the stories no longer make sense. some of the stories aren't meant to be taken literally (such as the 7 days of creation obviously wasn't 7 days as we know days, cause we judge days on the earth's rotation, and god couldn't have done that, but the point of the story is still valid.), as is obvious from reading some of them. the bible is a good guide to teach you how to live, and a good source of values, and that's what it was meant to be. just take the values and such from the bible, and form your life around them, you don't have to believe all the parts of the bible to do that.
I agree with you at least 95.3% I mean some of the stories were said in a way so that the people of the time could get some sort of picture of it. Obviously something written thousands of years ago doesn't make complete sense to us. But it's the same messege only in a different form.
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03.12.04 20:22 Post #69 | [Hide Sig (0)] [Profile] [Quote] |
Glenn
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Well, it's certainly nice to find someone that realizes that it wasn't seven literal days for creation. This is the first time in about four months since someone's said that on a forum I go to .
I'm sorry if the post was too long for you. I only put that in because he asked the question, and I was too lazy to filter through all the text to find the pertinent information. I might make a condensed form if you want it...
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03.12.04 21:34 Post #70 | [Youtube] [Hide Sig (12)] [Profile] [Quote] |
segasonic
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Heaven or Hell, guys, youve got to believe.
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03.12.04 22:03 Post #71 | [Hide Sig (0)] [Profile] [Quote] |
Akuryou13
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A week has no relevance to the earth!
a week is seven days, a day is based on the earth's rotation on its axis, so a week to us is not going to be the same as a week for anyone else. in the case of God, there's no planet or star to base a week off of, so the 7 "days" merely represent seven distinct periods of time that could be anything from a minute to a billion years long. in the bible it says that the solar systems, and animals and humans were made ina day, but we have evidence of large animals that predate humans by many many years, so obviously, it wasn't a "day" that all of those things were created in.
if I misinterpreted your post, then consider this post a further explanation of my earlier point for any one else who was confused.
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04.12.04 03:10 Post #72 | [Hide Sig (4)] [Profile] [Quote] |
segasonic
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Gosh, you don't have to be all sceintific in all.
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04.12.04 03:31 Post #73 | [Hide Sig (0)] [Profile] [Quote] |
clarkey252
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No wait a week is one quarter of the lunar cycle (the moon) i think.
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04.12.04 11:11 Post #74 | [©larkey252's Space] [Hide Sig (7)] [Profile] [Quote] |
kikumbob
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Well, it's certainly nice to find someone that realizes that it wasn't seven literal days for creation. This is the first time in about four months since someone's said that on a forum I go to .
I'm sorry if the post was too long for you. I only put that in because he asked the question, and I was too lazy to filter through all the text to find the pertinent information. I might make a condensed form if you want it...
No dont worry ive finally managed to read it all. Arkuryou said basicly the same thing, and after searching high and low I found a recording my dad made of a programme about the ark.
The programme basicly assumed that the stor was true but had been exagerated over the years. The conclusion that they finished with was that the ark was simply a trading boat, much smaller than what it is said to be in the bible, which shipped animals, food, and beer over a very large lake or estuary. Unfortunatly the traders set off to cross the water at exactly the wrong time. It was the time of year when the glaciers melted, swelling up the huge stretch of water and got them completley lost. They eneded up traveling out to sea, which made them think there was some kind of huge flood.
What the programme was trying to say was there was never a god involved. It managed to explain the situation very well, whithout using any supernatural explanation. I dont know what to believe now.
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04.12.04 13:27 Post #75 | [Hide Sig (9)] [Profile] [Quote] | Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] |
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